In this episode, Vasmi Koneru, Ph. D., speaks with Julie Paquette-Moore of the Engaged Mindfulness Institute about how teaching mindfulness emphasizes one's practice and the importance of mentorship and peer support.
Teaching with a focus on personal practice and ongoing learning.
Offering choices when leading practice.
Trusting in mentorship & peer support.
Embracing doubt on the path.
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Vamsi Koneru, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist and certified (EMI) mindfulness teacher. He completed his M.S. and Ph.D. at the University of Miami, a predoctoral clinical internship at the Yale University School of Medicine, and a postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard Medical School/VA Boston Healthcare System. https://konerupsychotherapy.com/
Podcast Transcript
Julie Paquette-Moore 0:09
Welcome to another session of the Teaching Mindfulness Summit. My name is Julie Paquette-Moore, and I'm here today with Vamsi Koneru. I want to introduce his bio before we jump into our questioning today. Vamsi is a clinical psychologist in private practice at Carneiro Psychotherapy LLC. His work focuses on the intersection of trauma and mindfulness, and he specializes in providing compassionate, evidence-based psychotherapy for adolescents, adults, and families. He's a certified mindfulness teacher with the Engaged Mindfulness Institute. He is a passionate social activist and focuses his work on the intersection of the carceral system and mental health. Towards this, he volunteers with Stop Solidarity Connecticut, an organization that aims to end the use of solitary confinement in jails and detention centers in prisons across Connecticut, replacing it with humane, safe, and effective alternatives.
Additionally, he serves on the forensic counseling team at Community Mental Health affiliates, providing individual therapy for individuals diverted from or recently discharged from incarceration. He is an enthusiastic teacher and serves as an assistant professor at the University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry. He is a facilitator with the Copra Beach Institute, a center dedicated to mindfulness practice and compassionate action. He completed his MS and Ph.D. at the University of Miami, his clinical internship at Yale University School of Medicine, and his postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard Medical School, VA Boston healthcare system. Welcome, Dr. Koneru.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 2:03
Oh, it's a gift to be with you, Julie.
Julie Paquette-Moore 2:06
It's great to see you, too, Vamsi. I want to start by discussing your path to becoming a mindfulness teacher through your education and academics. What brought you to this point?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 2:26
Yeah, wonderful question. Thank you. I often say I like to teach in story. I always say I stand on the shoulders of various people, including my mother and father; we jokingly say, but not so jokingly say, when we came to Falmouth, Massachusetts, in 1980, the four of us, the Koneru family of four, quadrupled the Indian population of that community. It was a lovely progressive community. We felt very nested in the spirit of community, the spirit of support, and household as well. It was always this blend of support and encouragement, having Indian parents. Still, a gentle space of this was an environment that often blended what felt like a story and science.
So I felt like it was always weaving between these spaces, weaving these two threads together: story and science. And so, as I progressed throughout high school, I'd like to say it was for more noble reasons. And then I heard that it was an easy course! But I took my first psychology courses as a senior in high school and felt like that was this opening, this gateway, this doorway into this space where there was the true melding of story in science. I felt like I had found the field I wanted to be in.
That continued throughout my undergraduate studies, and I completed my bachelor's in psychology. I was fortunate enough to attend the University of Miami and pursue my doctoral work in clinical psychology. There, I began to think more about change and behavioral modification. How can we support individuals? And I think my lens was largely tuned in that direction. If you had asked me my pathway, I would probably be an academic researcher and professor in that more academic space so that I would be very focused on change. Our program focused on clinical psychology, the clinical part of the clinical psychology track. So, how do we help people change? I wondered about other questions, like, what if somebody doesn't have something to change? Or, like, what if we didn't actively work on changing something? What if we allowed somebody to sit with some of the challenging narratives that they might have? What would that do? And I didn't know the answers to any of these questions. I just wondered about them; what are some counterpoints to change? Are there counterpoints to change? What if we help people rather than change things to help them get closer to who they truly are? And I think it was through an introduction to a type of therapy called dialectical behavior therapy, or DBT. It's a clunky name but weaves in change principles at its core. And it was my first introduction to this concept called mindfulness. And I didn't know what this was.
However, my professors introduced it to me, and I could use it within clinical settings. And I started practicing the different practices in the textbooks and things and found myself first asking, like, is this it? Like, am I doing it right? I don't know that I'm very good at some common questions, like some mythologies, because my mind keeps wandering and going left and right and up and down. So I don't know if I'm built for this. I don't know if I'm wired for this. But something was intriguing about it to me. As I continued practicing, I felt like my work was finding more of a balance between change and acceptance, a kind of change in presence. And that was the thread that continued throughout graduate school, into internship, fellowship, and my work. And as I delve more deeply into mindfulness, I continue to ask questions, like, again, is this it, like, am I doing it right? Because it's practicing what felt like a very individual way, but it was studying it and researching it. If time allows, we could talk a bit about the science and neuroscience of mindfulness, but that was a key on-ramp for me. It felt like it provided me with some sense of something happening.
Now, I don't think everybody needs that onramp; if you would like that, there has to be some empiricism or data. But for me, it just felt like a motivating tool. So, I continued to pursue this. And through that, I felt like I wanted to deepen my practice. And, of course, for any of us in the mindfulness community, you hear about mindfulness-based stress reduction or MBSR. You hear about folks at the UMass center now at Brown University. But you hear names and see MBSR say, I think I need to take this course. But how am I going to get to Worcester? I live in Connecticut. Through my research, the MBSR program was my first introduction to the Copper Beach Institute here in West Hartford, Connecticut, which focuses on compassionate action and mindfulness practice. So, my study of mindfulness and my practice began to deepen through MBSR. And to rewind a little bit, that was sort of my pathway to delve further into mindfulness and continue to practice and rewind a little bit. As a fellow, I had a very direct opportunity to work with many patients within the VA trauma clinic. And it was they are one of my first patients said to me, like, you know, Doc, since I've come home, I'm just not the same person. I didn't know what that meant then or what was happening to him, but it's still one story that sticks with me. And it made me feel like I want to try to understand this, the science of it, what is his individual experience, what happens within the psyche, what happens to individuals, their relationships, in the context of trauma, so that thread continued to progress.
As I delved deeper into mindfulness and trauma, I found myself with one of my best teachers. We'll call her Emily today. But this was a patient I worked with at a community mental health clinic, and Emily, for many listeners on this, in the summit, they're probably familiar with ACES or adverse childhood experiences. But these are various experiences that people can have before age 18. Related to abuse, neglect, and household dysfunction. I mentioned that because Emily had a very high ACE score, she experienced many difficult things throughout her life. As we got to know one another, and as I was deepening my understanding, I thought of mindfulness. I introduced what I thought was a sort of mindfulness practice, or my relationship with mindfulness practice, which was very tethered to mindfulness of the breath at that point.
At that time, I felt it was almost for me, synonymous with mindfulness and mindfulness of the breath. So, I introduced Emily to this practice. And I said, you know, I've been practicing this, and I found that it's been, it's been feeling very helpful for me. Would you be open to trying? How about we do maybe a two-, three-, or four-minute practice? Okay, she closed her eyes, and we practiced briefly together.
When we opened our eyes, the practice concluded, and she cocked her head. She said, I don't think I'm into this breathing shit, Dr. K. I mentioned this story because, again, one of my best teachers helped me recognize that mindfulness is not necessarily synonymous with mindfulness of the breath. The mindfulness of the breath is simply a doorway into this space of mindfulness, into this room or space of awareness. Emily was one of those teachers who helped encourage and motivate me in many ways. I just wanted to continue to deepen my understanding and practice. And that motivated me to continue into teacher training as well.
Julie Paquette-Moore 10:21
You bring up a really interesting point towards the end of your story about one specific practice, this mindfulness of breathing, which is the go-to practice, and then using it with someone. Maybe this person is not connecting with that practice. And so I wonder if you could talk about as we're teaching others to become mindfulness teachers, as people are training to become mindfulness teachers, what do you feel like are some other important practices to be able to introduce to students so that it's not just a one size fits all? Or just the breath? Are there practices that you find most helpful?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 11:03
Great question. First, I often return to phrases like listening and implicitly accepting. Listening and implicitly accepting are incredible forms of doing, and I mention that because providers, especially as we're training, want to help people. What can we change? What can I do? What techniques can I use?
I remember a mentor of mine and us watching our training videos. If there's anything that helps you to let your ego dissolve this, watching yourself on video doing therapy, and as you're beginning and enos of it, you almost wish you could apologize to your initial patients. He was watching this video, and he's like, 'you know, I can see that you've read the textbooks, I can hear the technique and strategy and change processes coming.' He's like, 'I want to give you some guidance and advice that you can bring into your next session.'
And he jokingly said, 'Grab your pencil.' I was a very diligent student. So I'm poised over my notebook. I'm waiting, like, 'What will you tell me?' He's like, 'Listen, 'That's it.' That stays with me today because we want to do so much. And I think it's coming from a benevolent heartfelt place that doing, we, we sometimes error, I think, in the sight of doing at the expense of most of being and listening.
So first and foremost, I think when we're working with people, reminding ourselves to be there with that person, that listening is a deep practice in and of itself, like holding that silence for yourself, holding that silence for another person, co-creating the space, which I think that the second thing I'm often thinking about; holding the title or label of teacher lightly. This means we are the teacher or the facilitator if we're leading the practice, which comes with certain responsibilities and ethical dimensions. At the same time, we gently tried to let it go as well, in that we, whoever we are, are co-creating this practice; that's the spirit of collaboration, the practice of the teacher.
And we're simply getting to practice together. That helps remind me that I can let go of that simultaneously. So, I'm genuinely practicing with the individuals in that space with me, and we are creating something together. So, both hold that role and let it go simultaneously in teaching. And then I think, thankfully, there is greater discussion and thoughtfulness and some empiricism around trauma-informed mindfulness, trauma-sensitive mindfulness practices. And I think this has helped us as teachers begin to think about it. As you said, we want to avoid having a cookie-cutter or one-size-fits-all approach.
What I mean by that is that mindfulness of the breath is a beautiful practice, and my daily practice is that I engage in it; if we have time, we could talk about routine things like that or practice and habit. That is the sort of consistent practice that I engage in each morning. And with some individuals, it could be like Emily, not a fit for them. It could even be dysregulating. Will we know this if we lead a session with 20 or 30 people? Of course, not with everybody. And I think in those spaces if we can give a sense of that there are modifications first, that somebody is not doing something wrong, or not doing the practice if they do something somewhat differently, and make it more personally theirs, that maybe deviates from the guidance or the facilitation, that they're not doing something wrong. I often will say you're the expert in your body.
So anything that I offer, if it lands for you, is beautiful, and if it doesn't, then for you, beautiful because that means you're recognizing and being attentive to yourself. And I think therein lies the practice, right, bringing attention inward, and then at times outward. So then specific practices, in addition to mindfulness of the breath, could be for some people to focus on something outside the body. You know, let's do a practice related to sound and listening again. It could be some intentional play in the room, or it could be ambient sound, or it could be listening to sounds outside of the room; I often will do things a little playfully as well, like, let's imagine the right ear closes, and the just the left ear opens all the wider.
So we're just listening to the world through our left ear. And then we let that close and let the right ear, and then we let them both open again. And people are like, ' Ah, I've never done that. ' Or that was interesting. I didn't hear that clunking in the room until I opened my left ear. So, sound and using something outside of the body can be very helpful, such as an external object of attention versus an internal object of attention. I think also, if we come back into the body working with and practicing with the body, like sensations in the body, the direct experience of the body as a direct pathway to the present. Maybe it could be, again, for people like more distal parts of the body, maybe the tips of the fingers, or the tips of the toes, the very top of the head. That is for some people. If we're working with them, and we know them a little bit more, they might have had some compromise to their breathing system. Maybe attending to the heart could be dysregulating for some folks, and this comes back to listening; we know that person; maybe we offer these different types of practices that allow us still to come into contact with the body in ways that maybe feel a little bit more safe, inviting regulating for them.
Julie Paquette-Moore 17:23
As we train, there are many different skills or practices that people need to learn to be a little more fluid with the students or the people they're working with. You mentioned that from the beginning, being loose with that title of teacher. And I imagine listening allows you to gauge how your offering lands with a student. From there, there's a way to get to know your students better. There is a way to know what practice might be most appropriate for them. Or what you'd like to offer instead of a one-size-fits-all, so many choices. I think that's great. I wonder how, as people get into these trainings, how do you learn all these different types of practices? What was your path? It is like becoming familiar with different types of meditation for yourself to offer students? Or what does the process look like to become familiar enough to deepen yourself and share different practices with others?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 18:55
That's a great question. I think of holding ourselves lightly, first and foremost, with a gentleness that we can then convey or almost embody with the folks we're getting to practice with. I have a very quick story. I'm a very clunky piano player, and I stress that I'm a very clunky piano player. My oldest son is a talented musician; sometimes I'll be like, okay, it was nice talking with you; I'm going to practice. And the first thing that comes out of his mouth is 'have fun' was a beautiful reminder because I can get in my head, I can be very like, Ah, I'm not good at this. And he's like, 'Have fun' because that helps me to allow myself to play and have fun with it.
So I think we can embody that energy like we're practicing together. Let's try to take it seriously and not too seriously. If we don't take it too seriously, it ends up helping us to engage in a lighter, more effective way. We're bringing gentleness to the practice for ourselves. First, I don't think there's any bypass, so to speak, to the idea of our practice and whatever that might look like for individuals. But I do think that practice is such a key part of being and becoming a teacher in an ongoing way with this sort of idea that we're always becoming, that we're always practicing that to maintain that sense of the ing practicing becoming, that comes through a sense of ongoing practice. So then we have it become more that we're coming into direct contact with these different ideas and experiences, as opposed to the concept, you know, and something I'm often conveying to folks like if you're going to teach like that allows it to be in your voice. You know, I might have my voice. And I might have tried to mimic other teachers when I first heard them because that sounded great. They're so great at this, I'm going just to copy them. And it falls flat very quickly because that's their voice. Right. And I have mine.
So trusting in your voice as well. Sometimes, we can all wrestle with our meditation teacher's voice, like, Okay, now, talk. We start talking, Oh, right. And there's some space, right for some of them. But we want to be attentive like we're practicing together. So I don't have to become something other than who I am now. Because we're simply sharing in the practice, I might use a few words that assist us in taking a posture and what we might intend to do. But if I'm practicing with you, I don't have to become something. In that role, I don't have to come into my teacher role, so to speak, because I'm teaching. So, I think this is where practice is key, like ongoing practice. So again, as I said, we're bumping up against, if you will, or bumping into the same experiences that everybody in that room will have, like, Man, my mind wanders left and right. It's like mine, too.
So we can help. And we can help disrupt narratives that get quickly entrenched for people because I know for me as well, it was like, I'm not very good at this. I'm not built for this. And my mind wanders. Instead of feeling as if you're doing something wrong or not doing it right, Therein lies the practice, right? What a beautiful thing! My mind wandered; it showed me how it moves. It's a moment where I reconnected with it. It's given me that moment to steer gently steer myself back.
So I think practice, at its core, is very key. And like how one practices this sense of exploring in summits or trainings, I think there is a deep purpose in summits, such as this training program, so that people feel like they're just getting exposure to ideas. And then they try things on, and they can feel what it feels like. As we were in teacher training, I remember we'd be in circles and trying to do certain things. And we'd have this beautiful environment where people would maybe ask us to pause and think, like, tell me a little bit about, like, where you're going with that. So we can reflect on our own experience. So, I think having spaces to experiment and practice is also very key. So I think there's a deep role for delving into the training and reading. And I think, though, primarily, the key is cultivating and maintaining a sense of practice in an ongoing way for yourself. So it also doesn't just live, if you will, on your cushion. We don't want to meditate to be a good meditator.
We want to practice so that we begin to feel that all the more coming off the cushion, if you will, so that life becomes this unfolding practice so we can begin to see like, I was trying to have this conversation, and my mind wandered there, just like it does on the cushion. And then I brought it back. Also, so that we begin to feel that life is an unfolding practice, we can bring practices into our life, you know, so that I'm not just trying to get from A to B. But maybe in the movement journey, I treat that as a walking meditation, but I'm not necessarily just trying to be destination-bound. Still, I'm feeling the experience of my body moving in space. So, all these practices and formal training ultimately allow life to become like our practice and teacher.
Julie Paquette-Moore 24:41
I love what you said about 'how we practice.' Coming into a teacher training program or training to become something, whether in any field but specifically in this mindfulness teacher training, people can get uptight in the 'I have to learn this, I have to know this.' And I think your point about the playfulness and weaving that through and the importance of how you practice it is such a huge point. It's not just practicing. It's actually how you do it.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 24:41
I hope we can all embody it for ourselves. A spirit of invitation that we don't take ourselves too seriously. And at the same time, also not too lightly, right? So we have this ongoing balancing act—not too tight, not too loose. Our minds and bodies can be wonderful teachers of all these principles, so they just organically come into the room when we're the facilitators.
Julie Paquette-Moore 25:54
The audience might not know this, but we went through some of our mindfulness teacher training together. We talked earlier about the importance of having fears during training and in becoming a mindfulness teacher. That path includes having others to engage with in this journey and in this adventure. I was hoping you could talk about the importance of having peers, co-teachers, or even mentors within this process.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 25:56
Yeah, it's a great question. I think, for all of us, in whatever our paths are in our pursuits, having a sense of mentorship is key so that we have the space where we can appreciate that it's very fair to have questions, very fair to have uncertainty, very fair to have those moments where it's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't feel like I know what I'm doing. However, I continue to be both in the meditation space and the psychologist in group supervision and group support and peer supervision in an ongoing way. So that we get reminded in an ongoing way that we're part of a larger community.
As part of my morning practice, I often will excuse me, not often, I will say phrases, in a way kind of like, really trying to express gratitude for the fact that I'm getting to practice with you and whoever you is. I think sometimes, in our practice, we feel somewhat isolated. There's something within teaching and with ongoing practice that we want to try to remind ourselves, I think, and feel into this idea that even though I might be sitting by myself on my cushion, I'm part of this large fabric of you of the community. And so I think if we can make that part of our practice, it will complement one another. We're indirect if you contact peers, mentors, and teachers.
So absolutely, I think we ought to have some, even maybe, expectation for ourselves that we engage in an ongoing way in different peer and mentor circles. Because, again, the ing we're practicing, we need to maintain a gentle sense of being in an ongoing practice of becoming. Because I think when we start to move away from that, things also start to feel a bit stale or static for us. That could be an interesting teacher in and of itself, like working with boredom and all those things. But we want to maintain the spirit of becoming continuously. When I was trying to figure out what to do for graduate school, I thought I had it all figured out. I was very interested in family therapy and clinical psychology.
So I was telling my mentor at the time that I think I'm going to pursue a master's in this and then get my PhD in it. And he's looking at me like a very benevolent sort of mentor nodding his head, and he's like, that sounds great. And here's what you're going to do. He gently, but not fully batted, but just gently pushed my idea. I took the salient elements of it, and he's like, here's the path that I think will work best for you. I think it will serve you best, and it came from such a trusting space that I was like, Wow, that makes a lot of sense because it's exactly what I want to do in perhaps a more effective way. And that's where our teachers, mentors, and peers help us. Continue to develop those trusting relationships so that when any guidance is offered, we feel receptivity to it. It may feel like Oh, interesting, let me explore that in my facilitation or teaching. I haven't thought about that, but I appreciate how you wove this idea into your poem. And maybe it's not that we just directly bar, like, I'm going to use that poem. But the reminder is that we want to try to be ourselves in the space. And if I like to tell stories, or you like to use poetry, or you might use X, Y, or Z, our peers, and mentors help me think this again, to continue to come back to ourselves like, Who am I in this space? Who am I, and let that flow in any teaching space you're in?
Julie Paquette-Moore 31:02
Someone we can trust enough to see something in us that we're not seeing now.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 31:20
I sometimes joke with folks during my day because I see various patients. I'm very fortunate; I don't work most days of my life; I feel like I found various roles that I never felt I had to work. I joke with folks, sometimes when my throat gets dry at about four or 5 pm. I have been talking too much and not listening enough. Or not being a good psychologist today. I'm talking too much clearly. But I joke! Exactly. I agree with you. Sometimes, those peer circles, those supervision circles, those teaching circles, and so on. They provide just that kind of reflective quality that we might hear somebody reflect on what we're saying. And it lands for us differently, even though it's our words at the very core. It's us being reflected to us. But I think it deepens our relationship with each other. It helps us to begin to listen more and implicitly accept ourselves.
We may become involved in teacher training and even lead teacher training. Am I
equipped to do this? Again, I think that comes from a very deep place of caring. You know, there's different literature, but the imposter syndrome. How I think about this is, Wow, when my imposter shows up. It's like, wow, you're showing me I care about this. And I'm having some doubts about it. Am I the right person to do it? Or should I be the one doing it? At its core, it's like, wow, you're reminding me I need to care about this. And so I'm going to keep trying, I'm going to keep with it. Because not that I shouldn't be here, you're showing me it's maybe this is where I should be because it's meaningful to me. So embracing that sense of as we're all becoming teachers embracing that sense of uncertainty as you enter into that space as an indication like, this is the place you ought to be in that moment.
Julie Paquette-Moore 33:36
It sounds like great advice for those in training. Those ideas that come up, like you mentioned, the imposter syndrome, or questioning, are we the ones to be able to do this? Can we do this? I think that's great advice to be able to see that and work with that and know that. I'm wondering if you have any other advice that you might lend to those who are either considering going into this path of teaching teacher training or even those in training now or are out in the world doing this? Any advice?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 34:19
I'd like to offer a couple of things coming to mind. One is continuing in the thread of practice. Continuing with your practice, whatever that means. I do think there's importance and relevance and meaning to having consistency to one's practice and whatever that means, if it's the same time, if the same type of practice so that we all the more get acquainted with some of the very natural challenges of simply being a human being that we get uncomfortable, that we get bored that we get a little drifty with our attention that we're experiencing all of these things as part of our practice. And part of us not as hindrances or that we're doing something poorly or not skillful at this. Because then that can be again conveyed in a very embodied manner to all the folks we get to practice with, it helps, I think, that that soften others' experiences with themselves, that they're not a bad meditator that they're meditating. You bump up against all of these experiences.
So, I'm trying to continue practicing individually in groups. And even when we're practicing individually, in an ongoing way, I think trying to remind yourself, you're part of this deep fabric of a community and humanity like it is in trauma provider circles, if you will, we're often saying to one another, directly or indirectly, like, you need like your team, they need your tribe, kind of your herd, to feel a sense of, like, I'm part of something, I have people who are here with me to support me, so I can continue trying to do this. So, I think engaging with your community is an ongoing practice, whatever that means. The third thing I often will say, as you know, as a teacher from Thích Nhất Hạnh, who have many people, of course, in the summit are going to be very familiar with that maybe students have and so on. But a teaching I often come back to is one that he said is like, can you find? What are your singing birds? What he meant by this was that when he would engage in walking meditation in different environments, you'd often let the singing of a bird or the chirp
of a bird be kind of like that meditation bell that we might use, like, every time he heard it, he would pause, take a deep breath in and out, feel his body, and then continue.
So the singing bird became this beautiful, organic ambient bell to cue him to check in, reconnect with himself, and remind himself, I'm here, and this is who I am. So, find and explore the idea of what your singing birds are. Like, what might that be? And just a very short story related to that: I call him my center child, so there's no middle child syndrome. He's like a very wonderfully exuberant guy, and especially when he was younger, he left a whistle. And my senses don't work all that well. I have worn glasses for a long time. And I don't smell that well. But my hearing, which is useful as a Psychologist, my hearing works very, very well. So the intensity of a six-year-old whistling and a person with very good hearing wasn't always the best match, so one day, I remember, we were trying to get ready for school. And he was getting ready, jumping around just doing wonderful things, but whistling intensely. And I was like, are you ready? Why don't you go outside and, like, you know, play in the yard for a second? I'm going to help your sister finish getting ready.
I probably didn't say it as calmly as I am now. I'm helping her, and I'm feeling a little bad. I don't know how I handled that as warmly as possible. But I'm helping his sister get her shoes on. And then I hear this singing bird, and the energy of Thích Nhất Hạnh is in the air. I took that singing bird. I let myself breathe in, feel my body, and try to reconnect with myself. And then I kind of look at the window. And I see that the singing bird is my son singing or whistling out in the birds. And so I stay out of this because our singing birds can organically occur like a singing bird. It could be the bing of our cell phones and our modern society. And it could be something that we typically find, you know, a bit much or frustrating, or maybe that could be a beautiful singing bird for all of us to pause, reconnect with ourselves so that our practice continues to come out. Even in moments that we feel like oh my god, like, you know, I'm so frustrated or irritated that, like, those can be some of our best teachers, those moments or like, sometimes we feel like there's a difficult person on our life, whatever that means. That person could be a beautiful singing bird for us. And trying to continue this exploration of what are your singing birds so that, again, the practice is coming out into life with us, so to speak, that is not sitting and resting on the cushion for you.
Julie Paquette-Moore 39:44
That's great. Thank you so much for being here. It's always a pleasure getting to spend time with you, and I'm sure our audience will learn so much just from what you had to share about your teaching experience and coming into this path of teaching and training others. Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 40:09
Thank you for having me. What a wonderful invitation and always a gift to be with you. Like I said, so thank you again.