In this episode, David Treleaven, PhD, speaks with Vasmi Koneru, PhD, licensed clinical psychologist and certified Engaged Mindfulness Institute mindfulness teacher, about teaching mindfulness and incorporating compassion-based practices for trauma survivors.
Trauma and its application in mindfulness practice.
Mindfulness and trauma sensitivity in therapy.
Compassion-based practices for trauma survivors.
Embodiment in mindfulness practices.
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David Treleaven, PhD, is a writer, educator, and trauma professional working at the intersection of mindfulness and trauma. He is the author of the acclaimed book Trauma-Sensitive Mindfulness and the founder of the Trauma-Sensitive Mindfulness (TSM) Community—a group of practitioners committed to setting a standard of care through mindfulness-based practices, interventions, and programs. https://davidtreleaven.com/
Podcast Transcript
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 0:03
For all those joining us, welcome to the Teaching Mindfulness Summit. I have the great joy of conversing with Dr. David Treleaven today. I look forward to hearing his thoughts on various topics, and many in the mindfulness community know him well. David is a writer, educator, and trauma professional working at the intersection of mindfulness and trauma. He's the author of the acclaimed book Trauma-Sensitive Mindfulness and the founder of the trauma-sensitive Mindfulness or TSM Community, a group of practitioners committed to setting a standard of care through mindfulness-based practices, interventions, and programs. David focuses on offering mindfulness providers with the knowledge and tools they require to meet the needs of those struggling with trauma. His work has been adopted into multiple mindfulness teacher training programs worldwide, including the UCLA Mindfulness Awareness Research Center, Brown University, and the Oxford Mindfulness Center.
Again, David, welcome. Thank you for being here. As we consider this idea of a teaching mindfulness summit, could you tell us a little bit about your pathway to teaching mindfulness and what led you to this space and practice of mindfulness?
Dr. David Treleaven 1:25
Thanks, Vasmi. It's good to be with you. And I'd be happy to talk and also happy to be in conversation, given your background. And so I'm looking forward to this. I am originally from Canada. I trained as a clinician in Vancouver, BC, and my primary work was working with men who were sex offenders. I have done individual and group work with BC Forensic Services. And so that was my inroad into trauma, actually working with people who would cause harm, and it just opened up many different doors. One of the things that I found during that work, which was quite heavy and intense, was I needed to be in my seat as a clinician.
I'd meditated on and off but leaned into my practice at that point. And I found it extremely helpful to work as a clinician around trauma. That work just opened up a lot of inquiries for me, like, what's the relationship between meditation and trauma and mindfulness?
And I ended up having my own challenging experiences inside of practice, which some people will know; I've written that I was making longer-term retreats. I also found that I had some flashbacks from the work I had done in BC. It was causing a lot of dysregulation in practice, and the basic instruction was to keep coming back to the cushion, and something wasn't working about it. So, it just opened up this whole inquiry for me.
After I talked to several people, they said, 'Have you considered that you might have been experiencing some secondary or tertiary trauma from all the work that you had been doing with sexual violence? I hadn't, and it was one of those moments where there was a limit to how deep mindfulness and meditation could go in terms of my integration of those experiences. So anyway, that became five or six years of just practicing conversation and talking to people like you. We were just trying to get curious about what the best practices are when someone who's struggling with trauma is attempting to meditate. That was the opening. The main question has remained with me for about 15 years. So that's what I am up to, really teaching people if we assume trauma is there, what are the best practices we'd need to know to ensure that people are practicing safely and effectively?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 4:09
I've always appreciated your vulnerability, first in sharing that sense of not creating any distinction or distinguishing yourself from those who are survivors of trauma. That there's a sense of the experience of flashbacks within your practice. Stemming from secondary trauma, which I'd love to hear your thoughts about a definition of because I feel like one of the challenges sometimes in our field is that a lot of words are used and various definitions are applied to them. So people will wonder, 'Well, what is the definition of trauma? What is the definition of secondary trauma? What do we think about meditation when we think about mindfulness?'
I've always appreciated that wherewithal, that vulnerability that you bring to the work and sharing your own story and what's guided you, because I think a lot of times in this space of trauma, there's such a significant divisiveness, like here's certain statistics and people will sometimes ask me like, yeah, that makes sense, working with veterans who have suffered from trauma or continue to experience trauma, working with those in the forensic population working with young adult survivors of trauma. It makes sense; we should be doing that. But what relevance does that have for me?
So, for newer teachers entering this teachers-in-training program, let's say folks were to come to them and say, 'I read about this, or I heard about David's work, and it sounds amazing. What relevance does it have for me? What thoughts would you offer?
Dr. David Treleaven 5:36
That is such a great question. I came up and never would have associated the term trauma with my own life. And we could talk about the secondary trauma and then the field around that. But what I discovered was I was working with a somatic experiencing therapist. Some listeners will know that the psychotherapeutic approach to trauma works. What I discovered was that some of the basic trauma principles of treatment were proving effective for me, even in areas of my life that I wouldn't necessarily consider trauma had touched.
There were all these amazing tools around attention and self-regulation. And so, when I teach people, we often have the entry point of talking about trauma, as you just did. And then I find that at the end of a training with people, they say, it seems like this work is relevant for most people because we're working with dysregulated nervous systems, like fundamentally, we're working with the nervous system. And so I think there's a truth in that.
Having said that, I do think there's something important about drawing a line in the sand and saying there is a particular kind of stress, traumatic stress, that involves a threat to life and limb. And that is eliciting and working with mechanisms in the mind and body that are not just, say, negative emotions like I thought about trauma very much as an intense negative emotion. And what I realized is at some point was, oh, my gosh, people who are struggling with trauma, and we can talk about that definition if you'd like, they're gonna need some different tools to be able to integrate trauma well.
I came up as a body-centered psychotherapist, so I say, 'Where do you feel that in your body?' And what I discovered is that it's not always super helpful with trauma. We need a whole different world, as you know. So, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I think it is very broad. I do want to shore up that when we're talking about trauma. There is something important that we can train in that we need to know.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 7:53
Yes, exactly. I want to open some space to hear. When we think about your work oftentimes, I find it to be a seminal work: Trauma-Sensitive Mindfulness. I think it's now used in so many programs; it should be required reading and consideration for mindfulness teachers. So when we think about this word, trauma, I think it's often oftentimes a struggle. I was listening to a psychologist on the podcast once, and he was asked, 'Do you feel like the word trauma is being bandied about a little too haphazardly now?' A little bit, right? And he said something, I will misquote him, he is a lovely psychologist, but he's like, 'Hm.' Anyway, he reflected. It wasn't this knee jerk, 'Yes, definitely.' Sometimes I'll have that, like, 'Yeah, I think it is,' but he said, 'Maybe, yeah, maybe it is.'
I always want to be cautious, minimizing anybody's pain. And that's where I appreciate what you're saying. What definitions we use for trauma are important and carry relevance. And think about the application, like you're saying, to a dysregulated nervous system at more severe ends. If we continue to bring a lens of not trying to minimize anyone's pain, maybe in some ways, it's not to say that it's okay or not okay to use this word, but at the same time, we keep this broader lens like, 'What pain are you carrying?' And must there be modifications to meditation and mindfulness practice or other things that need to be personalized and precisely offered to you in an individual setting? Could you share a little bit of your thoughts with the group? There seem to be so many definitions of trauma.
Dr. David Treleaven 9:44
You and I could talk for many hours.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 9:53
If we were to define trauma, though we acknowledge there are many, what's landing for you these days? How are you thinking about that? How are you responding to that as people come? What are we talking about when we use this word?
Dr. David Treleaven 10:11
Absolutely. I tend to adhere closely to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual definition. So, exposure to one of these three things: actual or threatened death, serious injury, or threat to physical integrity, including sexual violation. I had a mentor, Babette Rothschild, who wrote a book, 'The Body Remembers.' She was a mentor for me in the book. I, to own my own bias, was thinking about trauma very generally. And she just kept trying to shore up this threat to life; it's a survival-based response.
I'm sure many listeners will know, but then, inside of that, we can be exposed to trauma directly. Witnessing the trauma, learning that trauma happened to someone close to us, like a family member or close friend, or through repeated exposure. So this is the secondary trauma or tertiary trauma. So that's the encapsulation that I think about with trauma. But then inside of that, to your point, some people will live through and have incredible exposure to trauma who don't necessarily develop ongoing symptoms. And then other people will be experiencing, say, intense neglect in childhood, which is arguably that is a threat to life and limb if you're being neglected severely.
Other people will have a traumatic response. So that's the definition I try to create a container around it. But then, to your point, most of the mindfulness practitioners that I work with, their job is not to diagnose PTSD. I think it's helpful, and I'm so glad we have professionals who can make that diagnosis. It is very important for medication and also for insurance. But to me, the most important question is, are the practices we offer a person or a group supporting them?
I know this is tricky because we get into the question of goals. But for someone who's traumatized, sometimes meditation will exacerbate symptoms of trauma. And in that case, more will not be better, in terms of meditation. So, my work is to train people to know where the dividing lines are between when you should lean in. Because I'm not saying, it's about being comfortable. And then, where should you refer if you're not a trauma professional yourself? So it's both. I'm curious about what you think. I think it's specific and broad at the same time. What do you think?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 12:54
I agree with trying to create some framework around, as you said, those severely compromised. That state of having our safety severely compromised at its core is a significant danger, leaving us feeling profoundly unsafe. So, thinking about the effects of the event that trauma doesn't. Trauma isn't situated or nested explicitly if it occurred. The experience for that individual could be highly individualized; if there were some group traumatic event, an earthquake, or 911, people would have very different individualized experiences based on their social support and where they were. Then, those enduring effects continue to affect mental, psychological, spiritual, and overall well-being.
So, I do think it has some broad parameters. Yet at the same time, that sense of your safety was compromised, and there was a feeling of severe danger that's leaving these enduring effects on your psyche and overall well-being compromised. So, how do we bring that when we think about this definition related to a compromise of your safety and the effects on your well-being and various dimensions? How do we synergize in a way, as you would call it, Trauma-Sensitive Mindfulness? If somebody was like, okay, 'I understand, I think what we're talking about with trauma now, a little bit, I think I understand what mindfulness and meditation are, and what's the synergy between them?' How do you define that? How would you explain that?
Dr. David Treleaven 14:45
It's so good to talk to you about this. Okay, I think of it in two ways. I'll try to keep this somewhat brief. On the one hand, there would be a commitment not to do further harm to people. When I think of trauma sensitivity or trauma-informed practice, that's one of the commitments that I think people make. My work was centered, especially at the beginning, around the particular ways that mindfulness practice can exacerbate trauma symptoms. And just to be clear, in no way am I saying that meditation is dangerous or we should all be afraid; I don't come at it that way; it's just good to know that there are times when more is not going to be better in terms of an intensive practice or asking someone to attend internally. So, half of my work is to raise consciousness and awareness. If there's one thing I'd want people to take away from this interview, it would be the idea that it's good to know that mindfulness and trauma have a complicated relationship. I think that awareness is huge.
Second, this gets really into the deep end and is interesting. I think mindfulness has a profound competence in healing trauma, and I am curious about your take on this. I want people who are struggling with trauma to have access to practices that would help them grow this capacity for mindfulness or dual awareness.
Let me give you a quick metaphor that I think of with this. Babette Rothschild talks about trauma fundamentally as stuckness. She has this image of a soda bottle, shaken up and supercharged. And if you open it up all at once, it's just going to flood. We become flooded. Babette says the way to work with this is to allow there to be a slow release of the carbonation, the gas.
And it's a very delicate, nuanced process to do that. But when working with someone who has mindfulness as a skill, it is so profound to me that someone can feel terror. Some of the things that you named had a fundamental impact on a sense of safety. And they can feel a threat, terror, huge emotions, or sensations. And yet maintain a degree of presence and allow it to happen like a client saying, 'This is so scary, but I can stay online here.' This is where mindfulness is a huge benefit, especially in one-to-one therapy. So I think those two things, one, more the basics, and then we can go a lot of different places in talking about how mindfulness can help people integrate and heal trauma.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 17:46
I want to open up some space for you to discuss that idea. How can mindfulness be offered? I will often share one story, which I'll briefly share here because I hope it segways for you to speak about how we might respond.
I was working with a patient many years ago; we'll call her Emily for today. Many listeners will learn about the ACE or Adverse Childhood Experiences Study. She had an ACE score of nine, significant abuse, neglect, and significant dysfunction within our household. We got to know each other, and over twists and turns, I was studying mindfulness. A lot of my practice was oriented to breath-oriented mindfulness, at that time, sort of earlier in my trajectory and training in my own experience, but I found it very, very useful. I found it profoundly grounding as if it was helping me to relate to myself more effectively.
So, as we got to know each other more over time, like many months of slowly getting to know one another. I introduced this to her, like, 'Would you be open to trying it? I think it could be helpful. I found it helpful. And so I introduced my mindfulness of the breath practice, which, as you know, is just attending to our breath and not trying to change it or breathe in any special way. We practice for maybe two to three minutes, kind of a brief practice, to get a feel of it. And her eyes happen to be closed, and she's opening them, and I'm sitting, and I'm like, 'What do you think?' And she leans in, she's like, 'I don't think I'm into this breathing shit Vamsi.'
Dr. David Treleaven 19:18
Nice. Thats honest.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 19:20
But she was one of my best teachers because we had engaged in more playful things, like passing a ball back and forth in the clinic hallway and throwing a football back and forth. And what I think Emily helped me to see was that there are many, many doorways into this room of awareness. For us, more of this relational, playful kind of practice let our bodies be a bit more synchronized to help us feel that sense of safety and stability in our relationship. But she opened my eyes as if this wasn't THE way but rather a way. How do we begin thinking about other ways, other opportunities, invitations, maybe on ramps, different approaches that might make this feel more inviting for people, as you said, to assist with overtime getting unstuck if they help with regulation? So, when you think about that, you might offer various ways or practices to different individuals or groups. What are some things that come to mind that help people feel like they have choice and space, so they might feel like there are many doorways into this room, if you will, of awareness into this room of regulation?
Dr. David Treleaven 20:34
That's great. This is where I think the rubber hits the road. Okay, so what are we talking about? How would this look different if I were to be a trauma-sensitive practitioner in mindfulness? And I love that example. I think there is an inherent creativity for trauma-informed people to say, Okay, let's figure out quite practically what works. Okay, maybe the breath didn't work.
Let me give an example. Take one common practice and put the lens of trauma sensitivity on it, which would be working with anchors, which you will know, but for others, they won't. So, an anchor is a common practice to stabilize our attention; we choose one place we're focusing on; often, the breath will be a common anchor point. So this could be, in certain traditions, the sensations of the nostrils or the rising and falling of the chest or abdomen. So this is kind of 101 way to establish some mental stability and a reference point to come back to when we're lost, as we inevitably will be in thought.
The issue here is that if you look at an anchor through the lens of trauma, the respiratory system will not always be useful. It's not. It's simply not neutral for people. So some people, maybe they could have drowned. The respiratory system is intimately tied to our sympathetic nervous system, which connects to trauma. So, given that, what do we do? It's to your point that we offer some choices. So I lead a meditation where I say, 'I'm going to give you a brief practice. We will connect with three different anchors: the breath, sensations, and sound, and you can choose the one that works best for you.
So we're starting, and breathing is not the only way. All we're doing is just offering people, hopefully, a choice that allows them to access the benefits of practice. Okay, one caveat here. I wonder what you think of this? I think we can go much too far with our choices. Choice is a great principle in trauma-informed work. And to me, there's a societal issue right now around carefulness. Many people walking on eggshells say, 'Well, I don't want to trigger someone.' To me, challenging people is part of the practice in a clinical role or a group. And so I let people know, look, this isn't about making you comfortable, I don't want you to just bop around from anchor to anchor. And if you find yourself overwhelmed, it's okay to shift. So, I'm always trying to find the sweet spot in between. Not too tight, not too loose. You know what I mean? I'm curious what you think.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 23:20
I think it's brilliant what you're saying because the needle we're often trying to thread in is we want to create some sense of frame so they feel, they- whoever that is, be it the individual working with the group or ourselves. A sense of being held, a sense of safety. Also, can we feel invited to explore boundaries and edges and know what might be useful? Bumping up against some things may not necessarily be detrimental or wholly consequential, but there may be a lot of growth and opportunity. And as you said, how do we know when we're overwhelmed? Where's that point where we can begin to feel that and explore, like approaching the edge of something, maybe taking a step back? So I agree. We do not have to give a sense that we're trying to foster avoidance. And we're here with you to practice together in some way. So that there's an opportunity for exploration. I think, as you said, curiosity.
Dr. David Treleaven 24:33
I think that is level two in terms of a trauma-sensitive adoption. I'd say level one would be something like just this awareness that trauma might not interact well with meditation practices. But I'd say level two is what you're naming. It's this ability to start knowing when I lean in and back off. When do I challenge? And that's the art of it for me. This is not a science of ABCD. I think it's about a system of principles, and then we get nuanced. The best trauma people I know are masters at being able to seem to know when to challenge their clients. I love that, and I think we can grow that competency through training.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 25:16
As you said, I think a lot of teachers in training, myself included, our ears are all perking up on what that might be. Can you speak more about that for teachers who are thinking, in addition to you, who might we look towards? Or how might we explore that a little bit more, as you said, the art of it? So we're not just creating a roadmap or checklist, but a willingness to know that this is a little more jazz-like it's art; we're trying something out experimenting at the moment. How would you guide someone newer to that idea, who was like, 'Maybe I feel more comfortable in the space of a checklist or a guide'.
Dr. David Treleaven 26:06
There is a checklist, and it's useful. There are so many things we can learn, of course, but then, to your second point, I think there is this question of, okay, 'What's my embodiment as a practitioner, and my favorite thing when I'm working with people who are coming to me for online training is, we take a moment to recognize the skills they're already bringing that work quite well, around trauma. One key is the ability to attune; our presence has huge implications around helping someone self-regulate, becoming kind of a psycho-biological regulator for someone.
I go into this in the book about social engagement, so I think it's nice for people to know if anyone is listening. It's like you have many competencies you're already bringing. Here are a couple of my top ones; I think the question I would have people ask is, Where are the areas that I feel are lacking in my own skill set that I'm interested in learning and growing and developing? Some people I know want to get into more somatic work, more body-based pieces. Others, for example, somatic experiencing, which I mentioned earlier, is great; it's long, it's a three-year training, and it's a huge investment in becoming a trauma practitioner. But I know nurses who have done that, people who just wanted the principles, and that can work.
I have my online training, which invites people to consider how to bring all these pieces around. How do we cultivate belonging? How do we do a body scan? And inside of that, many different people are doing great work around racial social justice. Rick Hansen is working on resilience and resourcing. There are so many resources inside of that that we can learn. I think you've got a palette of what we need to develop. What do you what do you recommend to people?
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 28:27
Certainly, your book is often a guide. I found it incredibly helpful in your course and your lectures. You mentioned Babette earlier, Babette Rothschild.
Dr. David Treleaven 28:38
She's great, too.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 28:40
As you mentioned, I sometimes recommend Peter Levine's work within somatic experiencing to broaden the lens, as you said, more level one, to increase our sense of the prevalence of trauma, like its ubiquitous quality, how it nested in society and its larger social implications. So, I also often point to Judith Herman's work in trauma.
Dr. David Treleaven 29:05
Yes.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 29:07
Her book, Truth and Repair. And that's where I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. One of the things she stresses is how we deeply listen to individuals. What does a survivor want? We sometimes societally think that survivors want to have their perpetrator or their abuser, if that's the case, immediately incarcerated in the legal system. The quote, unquote criminal justice system, is the pathway that everybody is going to want. And Dr. Herman will, in her brilliant way say, how do we deeply listen to these individuals? What do they feel will assist with their repair and healing? What will assist them to continue to live the life that they truly want?
So sometimes we have this opportunity, right? In one-on-one work, we ask people, ‘What do you need? What will be helpful for you?’ We might be able to explore that directly. Tell me a little bit about it from your perspective. I have been part of training where there are many people in the room, your training, for example. What do you think about that for somebody a little bit newer, let's say, who's leading a meditation where they don't have the opportunity to inquire, personally, about an individual’s needs in one-on-one spaces? When you don't have that opportunity, what are some of your guidance for a teacher who's like, ‘Wow, there are 30 people here? I want to bring this lens. I want to think about these principles; I feel their importance and relevance; how do I bring that into this space now?’
Dr. David Treleaven 30:47
That is such a great question. I'll tell a story you might have heard, but hopefully, someone else hasn't. I was in a meditation group of about 15 people several years ago. It was with a teacher whom I respected and who had done some trauma training. And there was a newer student it was a meditation group, and there was a newer student in the class. And at the end of the meditation, there was a period of inquiry. The teacher said, 'How did that go?' And the newer student, to their credit, was very honest. And they said, 'I hated that.' They said, 'You sounded like your voice was just grating.' They just went for it. And what they said was very honest. They said, 'I wanted to get out of here. I wanted to run away from here.' And it was a moment the teacher and everyone got very quiet.
And I was especially interested, as someone who teaches how this will go? It was so beautiful, and I'll never forget it. The teacher took a breath and sat back in their chair, and they said, 'That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing; it's great to notice. Let me ask you a question. Do you know how far away you want to go?' And it opened up this new energy in the room like, wow, amazing question. And the person said, 'Wow, yeah, there's a hill outside of this house; I want to get up there.' The teacher said, 'Do you want to go do that? Could you bring someone with you?' And the student was like, 'Yeah, okay'. And so they left, came back maybe seven or eight minutes later, and inquiry was still happening. And they came back, sat down, and looked so different. And the teacher just invited them to share and said, 'How'd that go?' And the student goes, 'Thank you so much for trusting that I knew what I needed.' They had gone outside and run some wind sprints up and down the hill. And the person said, 'I'm ready to sit. I'm ready to sit.'
And I share that because I love your question. I think it's about an attitude, a fundamental attitude of asking the question you posed about what someone or a group needs, and to let and trust, in a very deep way, the psychobiology. There's a directionality, or impulse that if we can start to be mindful of and listen to people know what they need. And so that's to me, if we can embody that level of curiosity and respect, things can go in interesting directions. I'll say one last thing. You asked about groups, and the group was moved. People welled up, and they were like, 'Holy cow, something just happened. ' So there's a way that in the one-to-one interaction, it rippled out into the group. And so that's one other thing I think we need and that we can hone in and then just let that be a teaching for a collective body.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 34:11
Sitting with that, it's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. It seems to embody, as you said, so many pieces, like a deep sense of care, not just feeling like an internalization of criticism, like, 'Oh my God, how dare you.' Just such respect, like, 'Wow, that's amazing that you just shared that.' Wow, that couldn't have been easy. That sense of respect, as you said, like this person was invited to tune into themselves. 'What do you need, what's in your body'? I am invited to do something that maybe people thought, but I don't know how this will go. Like a sense of trust or acting in that invitation for that person to look into their body and mind to feel into their own needs and assess and come up with an idea and then be held in a sense of space of trust to try it out let's see what it's like for you. That sense of the teacher inviting that person to tune into their body's wisdom.
When we think about a lot of mindfulness programs, in the best of ways, they try to bring in that sense of embodiment; as you said, working with the body, the body scan is a very common practice. And at the same time, as you know, many people in the room will know that it can be very scary to be in your body. For many people, for various reasons, including in the context of trauma. It is like a place where people want to escape genuinely. And even psychologically, let’s say, different levels of dissociation. I'm trying to get away from this embodied or bodily experience. So, when we think about that, how do we attend to the body and work with it? Or perhaps, are there instances where we should ‘not go there’?
I don't think that's the right answer. But I just wonder about your thoughts: How do we invite individuals to engage in practices that involve more of the body, getting out of attentionally oriented practices, like coming into the body? Where do we need to go, and how do we need to think about that?
Dr. David Treleaven 36:26
This overlaps with mindfulness meditation, particularly in the Buddhist world; Pema Chodron's book, 'Start Where You Are,' is great. I think with the body, we want to develop this curiosity and get people started; I think we do want to challenge people to connect with their bodies. For all the reasons you said, I think one of the mechanisms of mindfulness is increased body awareness. And that's that's a huge benefit for people. And to your point, some people will start here, and there will be too much. And so I think it's about helping people begin noticing their embodiment level.
And if I could give a personal example, I would dissociate often in meditation practice. I would check out and couldn't feel. And I could sit for a long time and felt proud of that. And sometimes teachers were like, 'Wow, you can sit for a long time.' And for many years, I was frustrated, like I was just 'Come on, gotta come back to the body and feel and don't go away'. And it wasn't until someone who had some training around trauma sensitivity asked me the same question, 'Do you know how far away you go when you leave during practice'? Very similar to the story that I just told. That was the first time someone had oriented to my 'not wanting to be in the body'; actually, it was not only understandable, but they were curious about it and weren't making a problem.
And mindfulness helped me start to realize when I would go and how I would go. So I think we want to encourage that embodiment and body-centered practice. And at the same time, leaving a lot of room for helping people explore how distant feels safe for them, and where's the edge they want to challenge. And so, just one quick story: I met a person who had dissociated for years and said, 'Oh, my Gosh, all the meditation teachers I've ever known say that I'm a great meditator.' And I didn't realize until he'd come to training. He goes, 'I've been dissociating for most of my practice.' And there was both grief and excitement to that. So it's a whole world, and I'm open to hearing what you think about it.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 39:06
I love your examples. It can almost be in certain meditation communities, unrecognized, and understandably so, as a teacher might have many students like, 'Oh, that person seems very at ease on their cushion.' And that openness, that sense of compassion that teachers or friends or clinicians or whoever it is might be willing to bring in some vocabulary, like connection or dissociation, or things that help people begin to check in with their body to recognize how far away they are going. What might be the adaptive reasons that occurred or are occurring?
It sounds like many of your teachers, within your sense of practice, have brought a lot of self-compassion, and many of your teachers have embodied that compassion. Like deep curiosity, how far up the hill would be helpful for you to run? Or what would be helpful for you? How far from your body are you? Getting a deep sense of trust and evoking, as you said, curiosity, encouraging and inviting safely, a sense of approaching something instead of avoiding.
So this space of compassion feels like it's been evoked a lot of times by teachers for you and then fit for or by you within others. And then, as I think about compassion, oftentimes, I think about it initially, and when thinking about it with others, it seems like that sounds beautiful. What an amazing thing. We should be thinking about compassion, practicing, let's say, loving-kindness or other compassion-based practices that seem so resonant for survivors of trauma.
And, as you know, as a trauma specialist, that can be so hard for survivors of trauma. Many want to run away from this idea of compassion or self-compassion. That evokes such deep shame that many want to run away from it. So, just with that nebulous backdrop, I'm offering, I am just wondering your thoughts about compassion again and compassion-oriented practices, as they tend to be ones nested in many programs. It's beautiful and can be a beautiful offering for ourselves and others. And again, I suppose I am just trying to continue this by wondering about how we might think about it. How might you encourage us to think about it in the context of this trauma-sensitive orientation?
Dr. David Treleaven 41:41
Right. I think of it as simply one tool. And honestly, I know I'm using these examples of times when teachers were compassionate with me. But that was after many years of not experiencing that. I'm not disparaging the teachers, but the examples I'm using were exemplary to me like, "Wow, what a great question that I had never been asked before'. And to your point, I do think that self-compassion tread carefully when you're working with trauma.
This is another example of that second bucket; I talked about the first bucket is learning how not to harm. The second is that we have this array of tools that we can use; maybe it's a body scan or more about belonging. Maybe it's about safety. I think of all these different tools; there's a right tool or practice for a particular moment. And self-compassion is a particular moment. Yes, it'd be great if it was imbued throughout practice. But I think this is what we can train in: once we realize we're working with trauma in the context of meditation, we can start getting curious moment-to-moment. What does this person or nervous system need? Is it self-compassion? Is it a body scan? You know, what is it? Because, to your point, if compassion is working directly with suffering, and trauma is a form of suffering, self-compassion is going to lead people right to the heart of their trauma often. And to your point, again, that will often lead people to deep shame.
Unless you've done some training and work and how to navigate the waters of shame and help people know that working with shame is a high-stakes piece of work that can be amazing but can also lead people to a really difficult isolated place, then we don't want to drive towards self-compassion unless we know what we're doing. So, I think self-compassion is one important skill; I have a whole module on it where we deeply dive into how you do it. It's hard to do well. You've thought about this just from your question, and I hadn't thought much about it. I'm like, great, the self-compassion, that'd be good. But it goes deep really quickly. You gotta be careful.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 44:10
Yes, exactly. I think you speak about the idea of being attentive. Being attentive to the idea of what it could evoke in terms of shame, or for some people self-criticism, disgust, and all of these very, very challenging pieces, and skillfully trying to work with it. Again, this is not something to avoid, but awareness of timing. Can we engage with this person so it's not too much too fast? Is it engaged in a dialogue with them?
You've given us an incredibly rich set of ideas to think about and offerings to continue this dialogue. I wish I could speak to you for an hour or two more. It's just lovely being in conversation with you. I know I've got to begin letting go, sadly. So, I did want to ask one last question. I'm just glancing here so I don't keep you all night. Just as we think about individuals who are teachers, a lot of people here will be teachers and training, just concluding thoughts, words of guidance, offerings to them in a way, as they, even as all of us continue, I think of all of us. And while we may be, quote, unquote, teachers, we're all in training, we're all practicing. So, is there anything we haven't had a chance to talk about or concluding thoughts you'd like to offer?
Dr. David Treleaven 45:30
Mine is to go forward and not be afraid. And sometimes people hear the work around trauma sensitivity, and if they're new to the topic, I think they can get a bit frozen. I've heard this from people where they're suddenly realizing, 'Oh, my gosh, I didn't realize that meditation and trauma had this kind of tricky overlap. I don't know what I should do here. People will freeze up a little bit. And I'm of the mind right now that this is so needed in a very polarized world right now. Mindfulness and contemplative practices generally, and to go forward and not feel fear that someone will get triggered and I will be in trouble. What I often encourage teachers is that meditation, in any contemplative practice, is, as you know, a very powerful practice; it will likely reveal trauma. And that's not bad news. If someone comes to you and they start disclosing a trauma or a flashback, take it as a compliment.
My sense of this community is it's a lot of very attuned, empathic people. And so people will naturally want to tell you the secrets, and it's just like you said earlier with that story that I told, you could freeze up there and go, 'Oh, geez, this is now this is problematic,' or you can go 'Wow, thanks for trusting me.' And then we can learn to refer on, if we're outside of our circle of competence, or we can work with it if we have some training, but we can relax around the whole thing. Go forward without fear, and know it's a powerful practice; things will come up, and it's fine. People get triggered. That's not bad news. It'll happen; you can expect it. So I'd say that just go forward, assuming trauma is in the room. And learning how to work with it. And just people being in this conversation, I think half of the game is just having some framework and awareness of the topics.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 47:38
David, thank you for your time and ongoing teaching or development of these ideas and practices in this larger community. I always feel buoyed when I know there are teachers in the world like you; I feel very heartened, as we practice, maybe regularly by ourselves, that we get reminded that we're part of a larger community. I'm always grateful to know that you and folks like yourself are part of this community. So, thank you again for your time today and the wisdom you've offered to this larger community as part of this summit. So, thank you again.
Dr. David Treleaven 48:14
Thanks, Vasmi. It's good to be here.
Dr. Vamsi Koneru 48:15
Thanks. Take care